GABE PRESSMAN, host:

(Joined in progress) an historic week: The capture of Saddam Hussein hiding in a hole near a farmhouse in Iraq stunned the world. President Bush had a message for the Iraq leader.

President GEORGE W. BUSH: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

PRESSMAN: Domestic political repercussions are being felt. Has this dramatic development doomed Democratic efforts to oust the president from the White House in the election of 2004?

Representative CHARLES RANGEL (Democrat, New York): General Wes Clark.

PRESSMAN: Two days before this week's dramatic events, as a crowd cheered, Congressman Charles Rangel endorsed retired General Wesley Clark for the Democratic nomination for president. Just two days earlier, Al Gore had endorsed Howard Dean for president. Both announcements were made in Harlem.

In 33 years in Washington, Rangel has been tough, blunt and tenacious in fighting for legislation to prevent drug abuse, provide affordable housing and jobs.

Announcer: From Studio 6B in Rockefeller Center, this is a presentation from News Channel 4, Gabe Pressman's NEWS FORUM. Now your host, senior correspondent Gabe Pressman.

PRESSMAN: Good morning, Congressman, and welcome.

Rep. RANGEL: They don't get more senior than you do. I can say that. I'm an old-timer.

PRESSMAN: Yeah, you're a senior congressman. You are the senior congressman from New York.

The capture of Saddam Hussein: a tremendous victory for America, President Bush. Does it complicate the Democratic campaign to oust President Bush from the White House, or does it doom it?

Rep. RANGEL: I don't see how it dooms it. I think that we already recognize that Saddam Hussein is a murderer. I don't know whether it makes America any more safe. It does make us feel good when you get rid of a bad guy. When you get involved in the politics of it, at some point I think even reporters are going to have to decide whether it was worth 500 lives and a thousand Americans being wounded and not have any impact on how many other people have got to die. Because if that's what it takes to win elections--knocking off bad guys and putting our young men and women in harm's way--I got a list of bad guys for this administration.

PRESSMAN: But poll--polls already show that the president has picked up seven to 10 points in--in popularity since this happened.

Rep. RANGEL: I think that good people always like to see villains be eliminated, but we have a lot of villains. And I just don't like the idea of the United States declaring war and bombing men and women and--in order to get one bum. I mean, they killed both of his sons. We captured Saddam Hussein. But have we forgotten that it was this president, George Bush, who said that he has no evidence that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11? Have we really forgotten that we don't have any evidence that he had weapons of mass destruction that would--would put us in harm's way? Have we forgotten that there's no evidence now that he's ever been connected with al-Qaida?

PRESSMAN: So are you saying that this man whom the American people hail as a great leader--President Bush--that he's a bum?

Rep. RANGEL: No, I think that if my father had been threatened and--to be assassinated, then I've had deep-seated feels--I'll tell you this. And it can't be disputed.

PRESSMAN: You're talking about President Bush--the former President Bush.

Rep. RANGEL: His father, yeah. But I tell you this, that there is no question that this president wanted to knock out Saddam Hussein before 9/11.

PRESSMAN: In other words, this was preordained?

Rep. RANGEL: No question about it. There was a small group of people with Cheney, with Kristol, with Wolfowitz that already said that we were prepared--prepared to take a pre-emptive strike against Saddam Hussein. Now the real question that I hope Americans would ask is that where did the terrorists come from that struck this--this--the World Trade Center? Who paid them to come here? What country did they come from?

PRESSMAN: And they came from Saddam--from Saudi Arabia, obviously...

Rep. RANGEL: And the like. Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia. Who really visits Bush at the ranch and visits the pre--the other president, his father? The leaders of Saudi Arabia. We have intelligence reports that indicate not only could this have been prevented, but Saudi Arabia was involved. Who blocked out all that information that would incrimiate--incriminate Saudi Arabia? The Bush administration. I think we're entitled to answers to that. Quite frankly, you know, I'm just as macho as the next guy. Someone I don't like and is a threat to the United States--I can work up bombing them after we suffered the tragic hit of 9/11. And maybe if we had drum--dropped bombs on Saudi Arabia, maybe I'd be saying something different.

PRESSMAN: They bombed the wrong country?

Rep. RANGEL: I think bombing is wrong. I think the terrorists represent a problem to the international community, and we should cut this cancer out of our side. But to do it alone, Gabe, is so stupid. To ostracize our friends; I mean, our European friends. We never did have any friends except Israel in the Middle East, but we treat them like we're friends. Where are the Egyptians? Where are the Saudis? Where are all the people that we have these trade and money relationships with? Are they helping our troops against these terrorists? And didn't the president and Rumsfeld indicate that the terrorists really aren't Iraqans? Didn't the president say these peop--these terrorists are coming into Iraq to attack us? And so, therefore, we should feel s--more safe because they're not coming to hit New York; they're going to attack us there. Who's helping us with the people that are coming from these countries? They have no faces, they have no flags, they have no countries.

PRESSMAN: You're talking about the fact that 19 of the terrorists involved in the attack on the World Trade Center were from Saudi Arabia.

Rep. RANGEL: No. I'm talking about something else.

PRESSMAN: That's what I'm trying to figure.

Rep. RANGEL: I'm saying...

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Rep. RANGEL: Yeah, I'm saying first of all, we should have handled that first. I mean, that's all al-Qaida. They're coming out of Saudi Arabia and we're protecting them. But I'm also talking about the terrorists that are attacking our troops now where we lose somebody every day. These are not Iraqians. Iraqians are now the target of these killings as well. The--the Iraqian police people are being killed. Who are these people? They're coming from--from neighboring countries and coming into Iraq. So you capture Saddam Hussein. Are you going to tell me that this--this guy in a spider hole in the ground was organizing these--these terrorist attacks? If you say, `No, of course not,' then how do you expect that he's gotta stop them because we captured him?

And I submit this. If America is so excited because we got a villain, a bum, a murderous bum, even though it cost us the lives of 500 Americans and a thousand people, what about Qaddafi? Wasn't he responsible for the shooting down of that plane? And isn't he just as big as bum as the rest of them? Why don't we just invade Libya? Why not?

PRESSMAN: So--so why did we? What's your--what's your explanation? Why did we single out Saddam Hussein?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, I really believe that--that this administration never knew how to deal with terrorists, have no understanding of their culture or the Islamic religion, refused to work with Israel in terms of trying to find out how she's trying to deal with the problem, refused to work with the United Nations. But when George Bush swaggered up and said that we were going to get him, there was a determination to get somebody. And I will say that Saddam Hussein looked like a symbol. He had the big mouth, he had the arrogance, he--he had the insulting remarks.

PRESSMAN: He killed thousands of his own people, as our president said.

Rep. RANGEL: Gabe, I know you have to ask these questions, but if we were to go to war against every country that killed its own people--I mean, we lost thousands here at the World Trade Center. Wouldn't you feel more worked up if we were going after the people that were responsible for those killing our Americans at the World Trade Center than the fact that he killed his own people? Sure, it's wrong.

PRESSMAN: So we're giv...

Rep. RANGEL: But that's an international violation.

PRESSMAN: We're giving a free ride, you say, to...

Rep. RANGEL: We're giving a free ride to Osama bin Laden, we're giving a free ride to those rascals in Saudi Arabia, and we're just having ecstasy because the president of the United States says, `We got him.' And I'm saying sure we did, but there are a lot of bums--and I'm not prepared to have young people be placed in harm's way to satisfy the arrogant way this country is handling international problems.

PRESSMAN: Let's come back and talk about more mundane affairs, like the state of the Democratic Party in the light of these developments, after this.

(Announcements)

PRESSMAN: And we're back here with Congressman Rangel.

Congressman, Tom Kean, the former governor of New Jersey, is the head of this commission that's investigating the question of all the facts concerning 9/11. You said earlier that the administration has stood in the way of getting information about all the stuff that you've just been talking about.

Rep. RANGEL: Yes. Yes.

PRESSMAN: Is that true?

Rep. RANGEL: No question about it. And you can ask Kean. He had to threaten to sue, to summons, to embarrass the administration, and he's a Republican. And they put all of these stumbling blocks in his way.

PRESSMAN: Why? Why?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, because the report is that we didn't have to have a 9/11, that we could have done something to prevent it, and that's the administration. And they did not want this negative publicity. That has to come out. Listen, if you're going to take credit for now--for--for having the American forces--paratroopers, fighter pilots, land troops and the Navy--go in and win a fantastic military victory over Iraq, and we were able to kill or capture Saddam Hussein's family, holy mackerel, what a great country! I mean, what power! What precision! If we have been able to do that, can't we take the blame for not stopping what happened to those two big buildings, too?

PRESSMAN: And you say that the administration knew about it and consciously tried to avoid doing anything?

Rep. RANGEL: No, I'm not saying that, Gabe. All I'm saying is that...

PRESSMAN: Incompetence?

Rep. RANGEL: ...if we had intelligence--you know, there's evidence that they--they warned the president that this could happen. Now I'm not saying the president should have stopped chopping wood when he got the information on his ranch and said, `This is important.' But somebody should have been able to say, `Mr. President, would you read this again? This is a serious thing that could happen to the United States of America.' I don't blame the president for not knowing. But the same way the president is not responsible for the military victory...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Rep. RANGEL: ...then his men who are responsible...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Rep. RANGEL: ...for this--this gaff in not understanding the intelligence information--they're his appointees.

PRESSMAN: Do you think--what--what effect do you think this go--is going to have on the Democratic race for the nomination for president to oppose President Bush? Does it help Dean or does it--does it hurt him badly?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, if you take a snapshot and the whole publicity is that the president says, `We got him,' I think it's a plus for the president and it's a minus for Dean or any of the Democrats, for that matter. But, you know, you got one president and he takes the stand on television and he sounds good and he has all these military people behind him and you see Saddam Hussein as a--as a cowardly villain who's killed his own people--with a prop like that, even a class B movie producer would say give pluses to the guy in the suit. On the other hand, when this thing settles down and we get down to one, two or three candidates, and we don't have nine and 10 people in the debate...

PRESSMAN: Who will those be?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, I--I...

PRESSMAN: You're supporting Clark, of course.

Rep. RANGEL: Me--you know, I think it would be Dean and Dick Gephardt and Clark, after we see what happens in Iowa and--and New Hampshire, and then--and then after you--you have them have a chance to discuss--not debate, not to have one or two minutes, the Democrats have gotta decide that, one, there's not that much difference between these people as relates to domestic programs; they're all good Democrats. But which one is better able to defeat George Bush? And I submit to you a guy that comes out of West Point, a guy that's commanded NATO, a guy with the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star, a Rhodes scholar...

PRESSMAN: Wesley Clark.

Rep. RANGEL: Wesley Clark.

PRESSMAN: Your guy.

Rep. RANGEL: Well, I hope he's America's guy, to be honest with you. I truly believe that you won't see President Bush climbing into combat aviation pilot uniforms or landing on carriers because the question of whether we should have gone to war--but a better question: How are we going to get out of it?--Clark is going to have the answers, and Bush is going to be doing his showmanship.

PRESSMAN: There's a problem that seems to grow out of our concentration on capturing would-be detractors or would-be enemies of the United States within this country. We did a story about a man who's been held in custody, I believe, longer than anyone, an obscure guy from Pakistan, 27 years old, I believe, up in Hudson, New York. He delivered pizzas. One day he was obsessed--he loved the Hudson River, so he was taking pictures, and he got arrested because he was taking pictures of the Hudson River. And then the federal authorities absolved him of any guilt, but they found in searching his apartment that he had co-signed a lease for a Pakistani who was illegal. He was legal--this guy had a green card. And Ansam Mamoud is--has been rotting away up in Batavia near Buffalo in this cell. He had sent $500 home every month to his impoverished family in Pakistan, and the guy was very well liked by his neighbors. They've banded together; they're supporting him. They had a candlelight vigil the other day. And I--we notified you about--about this case. I'm just wondering what you think the chances are of influencing the immigration authorities in a situation like this.

Rep. RANGEL: You know, this Patriot Act has adversely offended so many good people. You're right. Our--our office knows about this. We--we've been trying to get his lawyer to give us information because, after all, some of this information is privileged between the lawyer and his client. I would hope that anyone listening to this that knows good immigration lawyers would really contact my office because what is happening to this young man is really tragic, and there's so many technical highlights you...

PRESSMAN: Twenty months without a hearing or--or anything. You know, nothing.

Rep. RANGEL: Well, we--we got so many people locked up that they don't even have lawyers. They're not even charged with crimes. It's not the American way to do things. I mean, I have gone to other countries on behalf of the State Department, whether it's been Republican or Democratic administrations, and said, `The man's entitled to be charged, he's entitled to a trial.' These are basic things--it's not just American--that we are doing to people just because they don't look like us or because they're not registered and participating in American politics. Just lock them up at--on technicalities and not bring it. So I promise you I'll be doing all I can to bring justice to this--not just for this one guy, but so things like this doesn't happen to you and to me because once law--the law enforcement people believe that no one's going to come forward, like the people in this town and village, they don't even know this fellow. And yet they know it's un-American what is happening to him.

PRESSMAN: These people in Hudson, New York.

Rep. RANGEL: In Hudson, New York.

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Rep. RANGEL: They should--should be congratulated. They're the real Americans, not the immigration authorities.

PRESSMAN: What about the African-American vote? It was no accident that Al Gore came to Harlem to endorse Dean, and I guess it was no accident that you and--and General Clark came and held a rally in Harlem about two days later.

Rep. RANGEL: What do you mean it was no accident? From what I heard, Gore and Dean got a cab and said, `Take me to Harvard.' And his cabbie screwed up and took 'em to Harlem and they got up there, they were looking around there, didn't know where they were. The truth of the matter is--that's what I heard. What do I know? The truth of the matter is we had planned our announcement for weeks and months on the day that we did, and I know it's a fact, because there's only one black public official there that they--that they planned this just to really cut us off, and...

PRESSMAN: I was at both rallies, and--yours and the Gore rally--and I saw an awful lot of white people and very few black people, actually.

Rep. RANGEL: Not if you were looking at the public officials. There--the Clark people came from downtown and took all of the seats. But the public officials that were endorsing--it was the most beautiful mosaic. Of course, at your age, your sight fails you, but if you recall--if you recall there were whites and blacks and Dominicans and Puerto Ricans and bla--I mean, wasn't that a beautiful thing when you saw. And I got some pictures that--you know, that--that you took right here.

PRESSMAN: Right.

Rep. RANGEL: If you take a good look at it, but--but--but with the other side there was not a mixture either on the stage or on--on the seats.

PRESSMAN: What about the--one last question about the draft. You've been advocating it. Do you think now there's going to be a breakthrough and we're going to have selective service gai--again?

Rep. RANGEL: Boy, I'm telling you, if you ever--you're an investigative reporter. If you really want to get one of these outstanding television prizes, check and see what is happening to our reservists. It is terrible. We have middle-aged people in our National Guard. I just saw a couple of guys 68 years old...

PRESSMAN: I know the...

Rep. RANGEL: ...being called up for the second time to go back to the Persian Gulf that's in the National Guard. I go to see them get off--their grandkids are there with me saying so long to them. But worse than--than--than that are those reservists, some of them are firemen, some of them are policemen. A lot of them come from the South, the rural areas.

PRESSMAN: Right.

Rep. RANGEL: And they're being called up for one year's service in Iraq, and it's tragic.

PRESSMAN: And you--and you'd like to reinstitute the draft to make it broader.

Rep. RANGEL: I'm saying that if we're going to go to war, let it be shared sacrifice. Don't keep picking on the same people all the time.

PRESSMAN: Let's come back and talk about some personal things, after this.

(Announcements)

PRESSMAN: And we're here again with Congressman Rangel.

Congressman, a couple of personal things from your biography. You've been in the past--have been accused of being part of a gang of four--you and Percy Sutton and David Dinkins, I guess, and Basil...

Rep. RANGEL: Basil Patterson.

PRESSMAN: ...Basil Patterson. So do you plead guilty to that charge? A gang of four?

Rep. RANGEL: Yes, I did. I didn't plead guilty initially because they said that we had blocked the political ambitions of somebody and it was--it was not so.

PRESSMAN: Herman Badillo, I remember.

Rep. RANGEL: It was--you would remember. It was not so. We didn't have anything to do with it even though it did look like four guys from Harlem who had their own candidate.

PRESSMAN: And now you don't regard it as--as a drawback anymore to be part of the gang of four.

Rep. RANGEL: No, I think it illustrates the long-lasting friendships that--that we've had over the years.

PRESSMAN: Starting with a clubhouse in Harlem.

Rep. RANGEL: Starting in several clubhouses, but we've come together and we've maintained that friendship over the years. We see each other on a regular basis, and we enjoy each other.

PRESSMAN: Now you and Alma, your wife, have two children, Steven and Alicia, and you have how many grandchildren?

Rep. RANGEL: We've got one, and my daughter's going to give me another grandson comes February.

PRESSMAN: So your daughter has benefited you a lot.

Rep. RANGEL: Well, the way I see it, we should have had the grandchildren first and then have the children. But it doesn't work out that way. But as you know, I seriously injured my knee not too long ago, and at the same time my son was learning how to walk. And I watched...

PRESSMAN: Your grandson.

Rep. RANGEL: My grandson I meant. I watched him, and Billy has been a tremendous help to me in learning how to rewalk again.

PRESSMAN: Really?

Rep. RANGEL: Yeah, because...

PRESSMAN: You live vicariously through his walking.

Rep. RANGEL: You have to watch where you're going and if you fall, you have to make sure you get back up.

PRESSMAN: As far as your daughter, the mother, far as she's concerned, your feelings about her? Have they changed?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, I told her that if I had thought when she was a kid that she would make me this happy, I would have treated her better, but that's--that's a secret.

PRESSMAN: You know, of course, this is all off the record.

Rep. RANGEL: Off the record.

PRESSMAN: You dropped out of DeWitt Clinton High School in your junior year, you enlisted in the Army, you--you fought in Korea. You got the Bronze Star for rescuing 40 soldiers behind the lines, is that true?

Rep. RANGEL: Well, when you're in charge, you--and you survive, you get the credit.

PRESSMAN: ...(Unintelligible).

Rep. RANGEL: Every time people tell me that, I think about those who didn't make it, and--and it's a very sad thing. That is why I'm so sensitive to the fact that so many young men and women like I, who sought the Army not as patriots but for economic reasons, to be able to send a check back home to Mom or to do something--we fought in Korea, we fought in Vietnam. But there's a limit as to why it should be just people who enlist for economic reasons, and that's why I advocate to draft and saying that...

PRESSMAN: You did lead those soldiers, though, out of...

Rep. RANGEL: Yes. Yes. I was...

PRESSMAN: You lead off the second...

Rep. RANGEL: ...trying to get out myself, and I was a sergeant, and we were all there together, and it was--it was frightening because tens of thousands of Chinese had--had attacked us in November...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Rep. RANGEL: ...30th, 1950. And I prayed to get out of that, as did my comrades in arms. And guess what? I haven't had a bad day since I got out of that.

PRESSMAN: Thank you very much, Congressman Rangel, for joining us this morning.

I'm Gabe Pressman. Good day.